Building a Better Bloke

Women are not puzzles

Posted in Dating, Women by Sam de Brito on December 15, 2009

By Jonathon

I’ve been noticing something a little disturbing lately and it’s not just within the seduction community.

It’s certainly exaggerated within the seduction community, but most definitely not limited to it.

What I’m referring to is the clinical nature in which men interact with the opposite sex: they see a beautiful woman and want to approach her but there’s this problem that needs to be solved before you can get what you want.

The problem of “HER” …

All the “objections”, and “games”, and “cock-blocks” are part of this complex algorithm and it can be so taxing that you actually forget that there’s another human being standing opposite you.

Yes, she’s a human being, just like you and you’re interacting with her like there’s an inanimate object that requires “solving”.

Now here’s the rub: by looking at another human as non-human, a puzzle to be solved, you’ve taken away many of your human elements as well.

I guess there’s a nice payoff in the end though: if you do get rejected and you “fail” to solve the puzzle, well it wasn’t really you that failed; it was simply your inability to solve the puzzle with the tools at hand.

But can you ever win using this method?

If you pass using those same tools, you can’t then rightly “own” the victory; it was down to the tools again.

What if I told you there was never a problem in the first place: nothing to solve, no criteria to fulfill?

Would you approach women differently?

What if you found out that there was never anywhere to get? That your only mission was to find out who that beautiful woman really is. Wouldn’t you intuitively know what questions to ask?

Would you forget that you were trying to solve something?

Would you be more human? More engaged? More real?

What if I could magically wave a wand, and remove all notion of “problem” in your interactions, so that all you could see was a room full of human beings … just like you, trying to get along in the world, looking for the same connection, and harbouring the same insecurities and fears?

Just wanting somebody to know who they really are so they can stop pretending just like you?

We all want it.

Then we go fuck it up by trying to solve our surface level problems by conquering the puzzle that is “dating”.

It’s OK. Deep down all anybody ever wanted was for you to be deeply happy, and to share that with those around you.

You can do it to, just stop trying to solve that puzzle.

Jonathon is a senior instructor at the Attraction Institute. To read more of his wisdom, go here

34 Responses

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  1. Another Girl Reader said, on December 15, 2009 at 1:06 pm

    Thank you for this Johnathon.

    I was having a drink with some friends, and we were talking about why one of our male friends, Craig, is so popular with the women. The reason is, because he treats us like we’re human. Most guys treat women as though we’re an alien species.

    It’s that simple.

    It’s Craig’s Birthday today – Happy Birthday, mate xx

  2. Girl Reader said, on December 15, 2009 at 2:11 pm

    “Cock blocks”? Seriously guys. We’re all making something very simple so extremely complicated!

  3. Yes said, on December 15, 2009 at 2:56 pm

    Yes. Yes. Yes. YES! He gets it!

    All men – read this blog post from Jonathon. And then read it again. And then again.

  4. Demot said, on December 15, 2009 at 3:59 pm

    Who is this Jonathon bozo? Doesn’t he have a surname? Is this a paid advertisement? If this is the state of modern blokehood I hope the icecaps melt quickfast if only to wash these wankers away.

  5. david said, on December 15, 2009 at 4:29 pm

    Your article contains no real advice. I can see what you’re getting at, but I really doubt this will help anyone.

    If a guy is not treating a woman like another human being, that’s usually a symptom of bigger problems. Problems that will not be dealt with by telling him to treat her like a human being.

    Can I try to write something better?

    • Graham said, on December 15, 2009 at 5:21 pm

      David, I think you are reading too much into Jonathon’s advice, or perhaps not enough. I can’t quite tell.

      Reading between the lines I see exactly what he is saying. Of course woman are human beings, literally speaking, but imo Jonathon is figuratively describing the sort of mental block that occurs when we meet a complete stranger.

      I know, simply because I encounter this mental block myself and it occurs when breaking the ice with both women and fellow men.

      Once I do get talking, you can’t stop me, but for some reason this wave of apprehension envelopes me in that first instance when I need to break the ice. I simply don’t know how to do it.

      Jonathon’s post has given me food for thought about questions I can ask to initially get to know someone.

      • david said, on December 18, 2009 at 9:40 am

        I agree that he’s come to the right conclusion (treating women as human beings), but telling someone the conclusion doesn’t necessarily make them able to achieve it. It’s like if I told you the way to winning a race is to run faster.

        If after reading his article, you go from having a mental block when you meet new people, to not having a mental block and being open and friendly, then I’ll take back all I’ve said.

        But what’s more likely is you’ll read it, agree with it, and then when you meet someone new, you’ll feel and act exactly the same.

  6. The Ginger said, on December 15, 2009 at 5:23 pm

    Well yeah it doesn’t contain “advice”…he’s saying you shouldn’t need “advice” about interacting with other people. I think.

    I know I was a lot more successful romantically – hell, socially full stop – when I stopped trying to pick up and just started talking to people like I’d like them to talk to me. The fact that I worked it out at 20 and not at 40 is just an added bonus.

  7. Tim said, on December 15, 2009 at 8:49 pm

    I wish people would just tell you what they want up front and not make you second-guess it.

    A yes or no answer even by SMS when I ring would be nice also.

    • Stuart said, on December 16, 2009 at 8:12 am

      You’re assuming that people know what they want.

  8. Yojohnny said, on December 16, 2009 at 11:16 am

    although the tone of this article was highly annoying (can you see us from the height of your horse, pal?) i totally agree with what is being said.

    Its like this: chicks think that most guys, not all, are like robots and holding a conversation until it gets them a cheeky shag. But, as this article advocates, if you rock up to a chick, talk to them and find out about them like they are a FRIEND, you will find something more.

    My advice is this: go out, have a good time, engage with a chick and DONT try for the shag: try to make her laugh and have a good time. Find an interest in their personality: like how you would treat a mate. I GUARANTEE you will find a girl you’ll like.

    seriously, you will stand out so much from other guys its not funny.

  9. JayCee said, on December 16, 2009 at 2:58 pm

    Sorry, but the lesson I’ve learned over the years is that unfortunately you can’t be a nice guy if you want women to find you attractive. It’s sad, but it’s true – if you treat girls as a friend, that’s what they’ll end up seeing you as.

    The fact is that women find mind games appealing (for reasons we men don’t fully understand). By engaging in those games, you come across as more attractive. It’s only once you’ve gotten the girl to see you in that light can you stop seeing her as a “problem to be solved” and start being genuine with her.

    There’s a reason so many men approach women this way – having tried to be yourself time after time and ending up in the dreaded friendzone, they’ve realised that what attracts most women is not who they really are.

    • Mags said, on December 17, 2009 at 11:47 am

      What a crock of sh1t. Don’t speak for me mate – I’m a woman and I detest ‘mind games’.

      What I believe Jonathon is saying is to approach women as people, without an agenda or preconceived ideas; don’t look at every woman as a potential partner but get to know them on a general level and see what might happen from there.

      And nice guys don’t finish last. Someone who is genuine and comfortable in their own skin is hugely attractive. In my humble opinion.

  10. Trish said, on December 16, 2009 at 10:27 pm

    Do men actually regard women as ‘problems’? What the fuck?

    • The Ginger said, on December 17, 2009 at 12:33 pm

      A “problem” in the sense of an interesting challenge, like the final level of an awesome video game, rather than a “problem” in the sense of trying to walk on a broken leg.

      • Nickolooch said, on December 17, 2009 at 1:12 pm

        That’s certainly debatable haha.

  11. Tinman said, on December 18, 2009 at 1:53 pm

    I believe that the thing that really makes dating/social-interaction-with-the-opposite-sex difficult for many people is that deep down they feel vulnerable and insecure. Almost everyone wants to be appreciated and validated (ideally for who they are), but they are so afraid of rejection/disapproval that they would rather be validated for being something they are not than risk the rejection of their real selves. As a result, both genders are constantly second guessing themselves and each other, and trying to appear to be whatever it is that they think the other wants. The result is that no-one is “real” (although the term is rather trite). Consequently, people are unable to really connect with each other in a meaningful way because there is so much dissembling going on, and everyone is worried that they are being manipulated or “played” in some way. At the heart of the problem is distrust about people’s motivations and intentions, and fear of being hurt (either emotionally, physically, or both) as a result. Personally, I think we are all making it much harder than it needs to be. Some simple understanding and respect for ourselves and for others would make all of the manipulation redundant. Or, to quote Immanuel Kant’s categorical imperative, “Act only according to that maxim whereby you can at the same time will that it should become a universal law.”

  12. Yobbo said, on December 18, 2009 at 2:47 pm

    And nice guys don’t finish last. Someone who is genuine and comfortable in their own skin is hugely attractive. In my humble opinion.

    What women think they want and what they respond to are 2 different things.

    That’s why the seduction community exists in the first place. If men listened to your advice they would be friendzoned faster than you can say “Can you hold my handbag”?

    You are only 1 woman, most of us men have had experience with a lot more than that, and the games definitely work.

    • The Ginger said, on December 18, 2009 at 3:58 pm

      Well, I think that depends on the person. Some guys are good game-players. Some are not. Some girls respond to the games, some girls don’t…you can’t put an entire gender into one box.

      Look at it this way. Nobody (that I know of, and that I will ever believe should somebody claim it) is 100 per cent successful at picking up. So all the “techniques”, the games, the approaches…it’s all a gamble.

      Fuck it. Do what’s comfortable for you. If you’re good at the game-playing, go for it. If you aren’t, then don’t or you’ll come across as a sleazy creep.

    • Tinman said, on December 18, 2009 at 6:51 pm

      I believe that there is some validity to your point about women thinking one thing and responding to another, although I would argue that this is true of both genders. People in general are notoriously poor at knowing what they really want.

      However, the fundamental problem with the “seduction community” and the ideas that it espouses is that they are promoting an agenda that is contrary to the goals and best interests of the vast majority of people out there in the world of dating. The seduction crowd are all about the ‘game’, whereas most people are looking for a real relationship with a real person. These two objectives are not complimentary. The players are looking to score and them move on, while the others are looking for a genuine committed relationship with a future. Logically, the approaches that are used to achieve these objectives are going to be different, because the types of relationships that are being pursued are different. Suggesting that people with genuine intentions should use ‘game’ tactics is like saying that you should use the same bait to catch lions as you do to catch fish.

      The ‘game’ mentality contributes significantly to making dating difficult for so many people because it causes them to heighten their defenses, which makes them less receptive to genuine approaches. To use an analogy – if all the people in the dating pool are fish, and a few of them are sharks, everyone becomes more careful purely because there are sharks in the area. To put it bluntly, the seduction community’s dishonest and manipulative attitudes and methods only serve to create distrust and suspicion about the intentions of others, and make it harder for honest genuine people to meet other honest genuine people.

      • Pointy Arrow said, on January 5, 2010 at 1:24 pm

        ‘To put it bluntly, the seduction community’s dishonest and manipulative attitudes and methods only serve to create distrust and suspicion about the intentions of others, and make it harder for honest genuine people to meet other honest genuine people.’

        Precisely. Well said.

  13. Yobbo said, on December 19, 2009 at 11:38 am

    Of course it’s about getting laid. The vast majority of relationships begin with getting laid and then grow into more.

    Gameplaying is about getting past the first post, without being put into the friendzone.

    • moet blue said, on December 19, 2009 at 10:23 pm

      Yobbo, as a woman i offer this reply- If we are attracted to you then you will not be friendzoned unless we think that is all you want. So i think it’s a communication problem, women can’t always tell a guy is interested when he is just being ‘normal’ with them and assume it’s friendship he wants. Most women will not make the first move if they think the guy is just trying to be a friend because well, we don’t want to gross the guy out with unwelcome attention.

      No matter how you approach us or what your “Gameplan” is you will be friendzoned anyway if we are just not interested or attracted to you.

      • JayCee said, on December 20, 2009 at 2:28 am

        Moet blue said:

        “No matter how you approach us or what your “Gameplan” is you will be friendzoned anyway if we are just not interested or attracted to you”

        And therein lies the key to what you’re not understanding. My experience has shown that what MAKES you interesting or attractive to a woman is not just your appearance. All the so-called “gameplaying” really is is letting the woman know that you ARE interested – in fun, cheeky way (avoiding the clearly unattractive emotionally and/or sexually needy approach). It’s just our way of ensuring that we come across as more confident and in control, which you can’t deny are traits that definitely contribute towards making a man more attractive.

        What tends to result is a fun process whereby the man builds his attractiveness in the woman’s mind, draws more of her attention and focus on him, and creates the sexually charged environment that I think we can all agree is one of the most enjoyable parts of the courtship process. There’s a reason it’s called “game” – games are meant to be fun!

        What baffles me is why so many people here seem to see this as a bad or even unnatural thing. It’s been going on for as long as sex has been around.

      • moet blue said, on December 20, 2009 at 5:30 pm

        Jaycee, you make a very good point and yes i agree that looks are not everything and i wasn’t just referring to looks, i am sorry if that was not clear.
        The overall special something is sometimes just not there physically no matter how charming/funny the guy is.

        I am only speaking from personal experience and from what my female friends do and say but some guys can be good looking , they have a good sense of humour they are interesting but i still couldn’t go beyond the friendzone…not sure why, there just isn’t any sexual spark. And i often wish there was coz they tick all the boxes but i feel nothing…

        A question for the guys, have you ever met a woman who is attractive and nice and funny but you just have no desire to shag her?

      • Rob said, on December 22, 2009 at 11:51 am

        I think a lot of guys are so risk-averse that they never get around to asking for what they want, in actions if not in words.

        If you want to avoid being the friend when there was a chance you could be more, make sure you present yourself as a romantic option. Don’t just hang around hoping she’ll get the hint that you want something more. Women can’t read your mind!

        Kiss her goodnight if that’s what you want. If she turns her head away you’ll have instant confirmation that she isn’t interested, which will save you wasting time on a girl who isn’t into you in that way. Don’t wait until you’ve known her for weeks – do it early on, otherwise she’ll have you in the friendzone and you’ll confuse the hell out of her for being so inconsistent.

  14. JayCee said, on December 19, 2009 at 1:54 pm

    Precisely, Yobbo. It’s just about making yourself more attractive to women right from the start. The thing is, women SAY they’re attracted to men who are nice, genuine guys – and I’m sure some are; but according to my experience, MOST women find the gameplaying incredibly sexy (possibly even despite themselves). Like I said, once you’re past the first post of getting the woman to see you as sexy, dangerous and attractive, that’s when you open up the door to who you really are and see if love truly can blossom.

    But all of that is just plain impossible if the woman lumps you into the friendzone from the word go.

  15. Bender said, on December 27, 2009 at 6:27 pm

    Both Yobbo and Jaycee have hit the nail on the head with this one

    If you spend time getting to know the girl, find common interests and talking to them you will be friendzoned almost immediately. You won’t give them the idea that you are attracted to them

    This necessitates the game. Only when they are attracted to you and approach you will the former method work. But that brings with it it’s own set of problems

  16. stuart said, on January 4, 2010 at 6:01 pm

    I totally agree with Yobbo, Jaycee and Tinman if you just go up and start talking and interacting with a female, as “Jonathon’ says, you get pigeon holed as a nice guy and put in the friendzone.
    Unfotunately most of these girls only respond to game playing because they have issues themselves. I’ve met ones that want coffee forever, one that claim they need emotional support and then giels who apparently want to date, but continually tell you that they arent ready.
    Iit shouldn’t be that hard, Meet someone, have some interest in each other and then pursue it. Keep your issues at home or don’t date.

  17. Pointy Arrow said, on January 5, 2010 at 1:33 pm

    Whats wrong with getting to know someone, building rapport, letting REAL physical desire build (perhaps takes longer for the woman), THEN getting to the sex-with-a-real-conection bit?

    Whats wrong with this approach is that a lot of guys don’t want to make the emotional investment because what they’re after really, is just sex. No-stakes sex, sex that risks no human involvement.

    Thats why a lot of women hold out for genuine signs of attachment and ‘involvement’ (i.e. emotional investment), because sex is an investment for a lot of women (authomatically involves the emotions -i.e. a lot of girls cannot have emotionless-sex).

    An this is why a lot of guys go for easy targets, they don’t want to get involved, they just want easy sex without the expense and social stigma of going to a prostitute.

    And this is the main sore point in the battle of the sexes. Sure, sometimes the genders in this scenario are reversed, but statistically, men want no-stakes sex much more frequently than women.

    • somedude said, on February 11, 2010 at 5:23 pm

      “Whats wrong with getting to know someone, building rapport, letting REAL physical desire build (perhaps takes longer for the woman), THEN getting to the sex-with-a-real-conection bit?”

      Hmmm…whether we like it or not it takes less then a minute for a (slow) guy to decide if they’d have sex with the woman. For a lot of women (and I am saying “a lot” because I have not asked “most” of them) it takes about the same time as a cup of coffee. If you are “friend boxed” at that point, its hard (if not impossible) to get out of it – that is not to say after coffee its in the bag, its just means you are worthy of more tests…

      • Lur Ustart said, on February 14, 2010 at 2:28 am

        No, not one, but 171 cups of coffee.

        It may take one cup to mull over and enjoy his attractiveness, and the other 170 to decide if he is trustworthy, even as a friend.

        It all evens out though, and eveyone can be shaggarifically happy. There are enough 20 year old females out there who haven’t been used the x number of times, know the game well enough to put their guards up, before giving their bodies over to be used. Waiting 171 coffees weeds out the users/game players and saves a girl mountains/years of heartache.

  18. bewildered said, on March 24, 2010 at 1:32 pm

    Puzzles? Yes they are puzzles. I am completely puzzled and do not understand. I don’t understand them, not one iota.

  19. niceboy said, on May 26, 2010 at 12:05 am

    My mate is a good game player and doesnt really respect or value women. I’m not a game player, and usualy just be myself and talk to women in a relaxed genuine way without ‘breaking rapport’ or cocky comedy or any of that crap. Apart from that we’re similar in confidence and looks (although he has a better face haha). He’s been with 60 plus girls, I’ve been with 3. I often get girls giving me their number during the day time, but a lot of them flake on me because I’m too low key and don’t manipulate their egos or emotions to get them to meet me again. Most of our peers consider him to be the ‘winner’ with women, and me that guy who ‘should be doing better’. They say, ‘youre a great guy, how come you do so shit with the ladies”!

    In the end, I think nice guys do finish last, however, that said, I think society forgets its not all about numbers! While I’d like to be with a few women before I settle down, I think that people forget the many joys of being in a relationship as opposed to having FBs

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